Is Your Staff a Part of Your Story and Connected to Your Mission

Lori: Good afternoon and welcome to Is Your Staff A Part Of Your Story and Connected To Your Mission? It’s being presented by Jeff Schreifels. You may have attended his session yesterday on middle donors. For more than 25 years, Jeff has been developing, planning, and Read More

Lori: Good afternoon and welcome to Is Your Staff A Part Of Your Story and Connected To Your Mission? It’s being presented by Jeff Schreifels. You may have attended his session yesterday on middle donors. For more than 25 years, Jeff has been developing, planning, and executing strategic fundraising and marketing programs. He served as Development Director at several non-profits and was Senior Strategy Director at the Domain Group, where he helped develop record-setting fundraising programs for the agency’s largest clients, in addition to serving the community in a variety of charities. Just to make sure you’re all aware before we get started, that any questions can be thrown into the Q&A so that we make sure that we answer them afterwards. I’m going to hand it over at this point to Jeff.

Jeff: Thanks, Lori. Welcome everyone. I’m really excited about talking about staff and how we can connect them to the mission. What they need so that we can keep these good people. Just a little bit about myself. If you were here yesterday, this is a little bit redundant, but as you can see I’ve been doing this for quite a bit of time, and yes, I’ve worked on the non-profit side and on the agency side.

Since 2009, Richard Perry and myself started with Veritus Group, and we’ve been working with non-profits all over the world, but specifically to work with them on mid, major and plan getting programs, building them, managing their frontline fundraisers, and also now training them all over the world through our online programs that we do. We are incredibly passionate. Veritus is incredibly passionate and donor-centered and we are grounded in data.

Everything that we do that we recommend to any client, is first because we’ve looked at their data and we see patterns and things that are happening in that data that allow us to know what’s going on in that file, where there’s areas of opportunity and here is what we think you should be doing. Everything is grounded in data, that we do. Our strategy is really based on years and years of working with frontline fundraisers. We have worked with thousands of them, and hundreds of organizations since we’ve started.

We’ve worked with thousands of people, training them through our online academy. Currently we have about 75 different clients all over the country and we’re managing over 250 frontline fundraisers today, where we’re meeting with them every week to ensure that they are getting what they need to be successful.

Everything that I am going to talk about today has been an experience of what we’ve done over the years in working with all those thousands of frontline fundraisers. Hopefully you will find it helpful in your work today. These are just some of the clients that we’ve worked with over the years and currently work with. We work with all different types of clients. Not just one type, we work with universities, health companies, corporations, Salvation Army, all kinds of different organizations, both large and small. Just to let you know the types of organizations that we worked with over these years.

Now that I have introduced myself, shared a little bit about what we do at Veritus, I want to let you know that one of the resources you can download free is a white paper called Hiring and Retaining your Major Gift Officers, and you can get that by texting 267-544-1447. That’s 267-544-1447. I strongly urge you to get that white paper, and then once you get that, you can see all of the different white–

We have over 25 different white papers on every kind of subject related to being a frontline fundraiser. You’ll definitely want to check that out. You’ve probably heard, of course, obviously, about the great resignation facing our sector and many others, and right now, your staff has enormous power and opportunity, and it’s up to you to address issues that could cause people to leave your organization. To start things off, let’s talk about what is causing this, so that we can understand what is happening and the history here.

The first thing I want to make clear is that your people are your most important asset. Too often, we see non-profits that don’t value their people. They can seem replaceable, and this goes far beyond your fundraising staff, and it’s really about seeing every single person at your organization as vital to achieving your mission. Unfortunately, because many organizations and leaders have not seen staff in this way, especially fundraisers, there are some really catastrophic trends occurring. In a recent study presented by the Chronicle of Philanthropy, they found that 51% of fundraisers surveyed expect to leave their current job in just the next two years. But the worst stat I found was that 3 out of 10 surveyed fundraisers, planned to leave fundraising altogether in the next two years.

That’s a huge loss for the sector, and it’s a big wake up call for all of us as well. Why is this happening? Let’s consider for a moment, why? Even though the rate of fundraisers leaving is more extreme right now, this problem is not new, and in fact, before the pandemic, front line fundraisers were leaving like every 15 to 18 months. The most common reasons we see for this are these, is fundraisers are being given a lot of responsibility that do not relate to their direct case load work at all. We’ve seen job descriptions that are 5 to 10 pages long, and often these responsibilities, even the ones that are related to managing their case load, have very unclear metrics and expectations and ultimately fundraisers don’t feel valued.

The organization isn’t structured in a way to support their work. There’s resistance, siloing, lack of collaboration, and an overall misunderstanding of the role of fundraising. Celebrating is not part of the culture. This is a core piece of our own permission-based asking model, but it’s also really a vital part of your organization’s culture. How often are you celebrating when program and fundraising work together to raise additional funds for a new project, or when a donor makes a large transformational gift to a project? Obviously, your celebration should go beyond just fundraising, but sharing these successes, is really important. Finally, there’s no success or structure for success.

Fundraisers need a clear, simple structure that they can implement and that they’re being held accountable to, if you want to retain them, raise more money and better serve your donors. Now that might seem weird, like they need a structure to be actually be better at this? Yes. You might run into a lot of frontline fundraisers who go like, “I don’t need a structure.” But what we have found over the years in the thousands of frontline fundraisers that we’ve managed, having a structure is key to retaining them and helping them be successful at what they do.

It might not seem like this turnover is having a large impact, but the truth is very different. Consider this for a moment. A few years ago I read an article from Seth Godin that spoke to this, and he shared some fascinating statistics about customer loss in the for-profit sector. Things like it costs Apple $10,000 when you switch to an Android phone, and it costs a grocery store $50,000 if you have a bad experience and stop shopping there. These organizations have quantified the impact of losing a customer, and it’s pretty startling.

I highly recommend that you do this as well, because when your staff is dissatisfied and you have high turnover, there is a major loss occurring for your organization. Here’s what the impact on this is. If you have to spend more money hiring than training a new person, it can take months or even a year to fill that position. Your donors aren’t being cared for or served during this onslaught of transition, so donor and value attrition, which is when giving decreases from donors you are retaining both remain high. Your fundraising programs have meager growth. You may see some small increases, but they’re stagnant and ultimately, your fundraisers become disillusioned and they leave.

I can tell you a story that just happened recently. I got a call from an MGO that said, “Jeff, I had this opportunity that I can get paid $8,000 more a year and I don’t know if I should take it because I love the mission of this organization, but I feel like I’m just stuck there. Over all the last three years, I’ve not only made my goal, I’ve exceeded my goal by 30% to 50% every year.” This fundraiser, frontline fundraiser, was killing it, doing a great job and not only that, but they were just so positive a person, they were incredible for the office. Over time, she’s like, “I really think I just need to take this opportunity, because I just don’t see them.” I went to them and I said, “Hey, I got this opportunity. It’s $8,000 more.”

The organization came back and said, “We really want to keep you here, but your pay level grade is at a five or whatever.” I’m making that up, but they had pay level grades and because she wasn’t a supervisor or a manager, she couldn’t make past that grade. There was a range and she was at the top of this range. Here’s a nonprofit who has a very successful frontline fundraiser and because she asked for an $8,000 raise to stay, to match this other organization, they couldn’t do it because of some policy that they had in the organization around meeting a certain paygrade. Totally short-sighted.

She left, they lost her. It took three or four months to find another person to fill that person’s role. They weren’t as good as that person, but think about now the donors for three, four months who have not been cultivated or stewarded because that person left all for $8,000. Nonprofits do this all the time. It’s so frustrating. It angers me to no end that somebody who is generating revenue like she was and they can’t give her a raise because of some kind of internal criteria. Ridiculous, but it’s happening.

I know there’s a lot to consider and you may be wondering, what can you actually do all about this. This is where we’re going to be heading next. The first thing I recommend is that you set really clear expectations so that you get into what exactly– We’ll get into what that exactly means. Here are four things to consider. There are four pieces that work together to help you create clear expectations with your staff. The first is having the right job description.

Within that job description, you want to include the metrics you’ll be using to measure success and these should align with specific responsibilities you have listed. Internally, you need to be clear on your ROI expectations. When you’re just starting a major gift program or having a new fundraiser come in, you cannot expect to have a 12:1 ROI. You should instead set your expectation probably around a 3:1 to start and recognize that as the program matures, that ROI obviously is going to increase alongside it.

Lastly, you should be clear on the timelines both for yourself and for your staff. For example, our qualification process that we use at Veritus can take up six to eight months to complete. Depending on where you’re starting from and how that process goes, it could be longer. That means it could take close to a full year before your major gift officer is managing a full caseload, and that needs to be accounted for in your expectations. The first item I touched on above is that job description. This is so important. I wanted to share a bit more about this with you.

You need to be really clear about what you want to include and what should not be included in that job description. Let me show you an example of what we mean. Here’s a sample job description that we use with our clients. You can see the purpose is clearly written and represents the dual purpose of fundraising, which is to secure funds for the organization and fulfill the donors’ passions and interest. Then each responsibility is mirrored with how the performance of that responsibility will be measured. I’ll leave this just for a second here, but this is it. This is the job description, right here.

Now, like I said before, we’ve seen 5 to 10-page job descriptions for a frontline fundraiser. That’s totally ridiculous. This is very clear and very straightforward. The next recommendation I want to dive into is that you must stay consistent and committed to creating a structure for success. It’s important to start creating the right structure when you’re first training your staff. This is the time to create consistency and accountability along with a foundation in the right areas.

That foundation needs to include a clear understanding of the philosophy of fundraising and you should integrate the new team members into a culture of philanthropy and collaboration across the organization. You’ll also want to be clear on the expectations and how you’ll be supporting, guiding and encouraging this person going forward. Once you’ve created the right foundation and understanding for the purpose and role of fundraising, then it’s time to create the right structure to keep each fundraiser focused on working their plan.

In our approach, there are some key pieces to how you create the right plan, and in major gifts, it starts with qualifying every donor that’s on your caseload. We considered a qualified donor to be someone who’s engaged in two-way communication with you and has indicated that they are open to a personal relationship with you. Once qualified, you need to create an individual and personalized plan and revenue goal for every donor in your caseload and we recommend no more than 150 donors for your major gift caseload.

That revenue goal should be cash flowed so that you know when to expect that revenue to come in and you can build the rest of your communication plan around it. Lastly, we encourage every fundraiser we work with to create aspirational goals. Essentially, once you’ve created the budget goal that goes to finance, you create these dream goals, and if all the stars align, what could be achieved. Then forget your budget goals and go after the aspirational goal.

Let’s start with qualification. I’ll start to share a bit about the qualification method that I just mentioned. This is a strategy that was adopted from the sales work that we’ve seen in the for-profit world. It involves an average of about seven, sometimes nine touch points. These touch points are carefully designed to use different forms of communication and share different topic areas. This is especially important if you don’t know yet the donors’ communication preferences and interests.

We recommend doing the qualification process in batches and you could be sending this information out to donors already identified in a donor pool, based on meeting certain criteria. This process is essentially because just meeting certain criteria is not enough to say a donor wants to be engaged on a caseload. Some donors who meet a major gift criteria have absolutely no desire to be in a personal relationship with you. This process will help you identify the ones that actually want that relationship.

Part of the process of creating individual plans and goals for your donor is also tiering the donors properly, so you’re focusing your time on the right donor. While every donor is valuable and important, not everyone needs the same amount of time and attention. You only have so much time so tiering is a process that keeps you prioritized. Setting goals is both a budget and aspirational goal, is so important in creating a plan for that donor and also providing more accurate information to your finance team.

Each year, you’ll want to go through each donor and identify your expectation for the new year. Organizations that just do blanket increases miss out on the nuances and unique opportunities that can be found on the individual level. It also puts focus on going after the money rather than focusing on the donor relationship. Now, here’s a plan that’s part of the structure, it’s got to be. We recommend creating a 12-month communication plan for every donor. This keeps the fundraiser focused and clear of where they’re going in their work.

These plans don’t need to be extensive or elaborate. They just need to be meaningful, aligned with the donor interests and each step should move the relationship forward. As you can see in this example, there are ask notes throughout the plan, which is what we recommend creating first in your plan. Then you build around that to ensure you’re reporting back on gifts in a timely manner and cultivating that relationship towards each ask by providing the necessary information that donors need to consider.

The next recommendation I want to discuss about is all-around accountability. Accountability can come from some feelings of fear or shame because it’s often used poorly, but if you can use accountability in a positive and supportive way, it can be transformative for you and your fundraisers, and they want to stay because they know that you have their back. The first thing to consider with this is that you need to evaluate what metrics you’re using. Hopefully, you’re doing that in your area of evaluation of your job description, but you need to also adjust what you’re measuring, how you’re tracking things in your database, and what you’re incorporating into ongoing evaluations of every fundraiser in your program. One of the major areas that we focus on that differs from traditional metrics is in face to face visits. This has been a long standing focus of evaluation and fundraising, and it perpetuates a money focused approach. Instead, we focus on meaningful connections.

A meaningful connection is different because it must be valuable and have impact for the donor and should be designed to move the relationship forward. It can also happen through any type of communication. During the pandemic, we had one fundraiser who had a donor that preferred communicating with text. The fundraiser was respectful of that and focused on sending meaningful information related to the donor’s interest by text. That communication resulted in a $10,000 gift and a deeper relationship with the donor because the fundraiser had respected the donor’s preferences.

Accountability is really about helping your team stay committed and focused on working their plan. It’s designated time for you to touch base and provide support when needed. This may come in the form of identifying obstacles that are pulling your fundraisers away from their work, or it may be helping them fully implement a part of the structure that they need to help them stay on track. This is also a time for you and the fundraiser to be in conversation about adjustments, changes to the plan, and any giving changes that might have a budget impact.

Your approach here is critical. If you come from a place of collaboration and partnership, it will be transformative. A major part of creating accountability is to do regular reporting. This means you need to be in partnership with each fundraiser, to gather important information and start to identify trends. You may be finding that there are giving trends across caseloads that need to be addressed, and if you aren’t connected to your team and building a culture of trust, you may miss out on important information that will guide your decisions and strategies.

You can take this information and inform the rest of leadership team and the board, especially as you learn more about significant changes that need to be considered across other departments. How you approach managing your team is an important piece in bringing your staff into the story, creating the community within your organization, and better retaining your fundraisers. To do this well, you must be committed to training, creating the right plan in partnership with your team, coaching them reporting out and keeping your team accountable through regular meetings and checkouts.

The last structure piece you need to consider and clearly communicate to each member of your team is all about evaluation. We’ve talked about this a bit regarding metrics and how those tie into the job description for every niche fundraiser that’s being measured, but it’s important to remember that evaluation needs to happen regularly, not just when there’s a problem. By regularly meeting with your team, you’ll get insight into the status of each person. This gives you the opportunity to identify and reward people who are performing really well so that you can retain them and value them. It also helps you get the information you need to address low performance and try to get to the bottom of why they may be occurring.

Everything I’ve talked about will only work if you build trust with your team. You must approach working with each staff member from a place of trust, empathy, and true caring, if you want to be successful and retain them. We actually have been conducting some conversations with some top leaders in the nonprofit sector to learn more about what they think is the most important in their role as a leader. I want to share some of the things that they mentioned because they relate back to this point. They recognize the importance of being vulnerable and transparent. This must start with you if you expect your team to be open and honest with you.

A key factor is that you must be compassionate in your honesty. Being blunt and direct without considering the other person’s personality and style is unlikely to get people to really hear you or feel like they can trust you. Leading with listening was another consistent thing we heard from leader after leader. Lastly, you can build trust and accountability by seeing mistakes as learning opportunities. Instead of considering a problem to be a negative or a failure, see it as a positive. Many of us grow tensor on the idea of accountability, because we’ve had situations where we make a mistake, and we’re punished or shamed for it. That kind of behavior damages trust and can sour the relationship to the point that you’ll lose that person.

The last recommendation I have for you today on how to make your staff part of your story and better retain your fundraisers, is around supporting, encouraging and celebrating. As I mentioned, we’ve been doing some focus groups with leaders and the key that’s been arising from these conversations is that your success as a leader is in radically caring for your people. Let me share some statistics on this. Employees who don’t get recognized for their work are twice as likely to be job hunting. Get that? Twice as likely. If they’re not recognized positively, they’re twice as likely to leave.

23% are more likely to stay when their managers clearly state their roles and responsibilities. It costs on average 33% of that employee’s compensation to replace that person when they leave another position. They’re leaving, let’s say the cost $100,000. It’s costing you $33,000, to find just another person. When we care for our people and see them as vital to our work, this deeply impacts if that employee is going to leave or become disillusioned in their role. This is something we’re focused on at Veritus as well and just recently, we did an assessment to understand how each person wants to receive feedback, support and encouragement, specific in the workplace, and learn what each person doesn’t want.

These kinds of steps help you continue to see each person and the unique gifts and personality they bring to your community. Here’s some other ideas on what we recommend for supporting your staff. Regularly provide encouragement and feedback. We all know that encouragement is powerful, but it’s also fickle. Getting a compliment feels great, but it doesn’t last long. That’s why you need to do this regularly in a manner that is tailored to that individual. You should also have regular conversations with your staff on where they need your help. Then you need to follow through with working to address that and keep them updated on your progress.

Provide a system of accountability, which we discussed already. This is a big one. Do not pull your staff into endless meetings. We’ve actually been working on this at Veritus as well and we’ve launched a combined meetings approach where we’ve cut down on the hours of different meetings our staff used to be in, so we’ve gotten really creative to protect our team’s time.

The last thing I want to share with you today is about coaching. This is a powerful way to retain your staff and show them you value them. This is something you can achieve in your regular check-ins as well, but your focus here is slightly different. Here, you’re trying to check-in with each person on how you can coach them to grow and develop their strengths. You should focus more on listening for areas the employee needs to develop and identify how you can help them grow in that area. You may also use this time for some brainstorming and create a discussion around their work. Being there as a coach continues to reinforce and establish this kind of culture that we’ve been discussing today.

If you can adopt these things as a leader, as a manager, or even as a frontline fundraiser who wants to be a manager, I guarantee that you will create a culture where people want to stay in your organization because they feel cared for, they feel listened to. They have a real structure to work with them. They know what’s expected of them every day. They know what they need to do to be successful in their job. These are all the reasons why fundraisers are leaving, because they don’t have that, but you can provide that. Now’s a great time for questions and I hope that was helpful.

Lori: Okay, let’s see what we have. First question is from Rachel and she says how do you recommend applying these principles in a super small org where we only have one and a half employees running the office, volunteers, DP, marketing, et cetera.

Jeff: You have just one and a half people doing it all basically. Is that what you’re saying?

Lori: Yes.

Jeff: I think all the same principles apply. You’re still trying to have a culture that is one of caring. One that is giving every person a very– that they know what their job is, even if it includes multiple types of jobs. Everyone is aware of that and understands it, and you’re in it together. All the principles that we talked about for if you had 100 people on your staff, or 2 people on your staff, generally all apply.

Lori: From Tracy, she’s asking, should the portfolio size be adjusted to reflect organization budget and capacity?

Jeff: Portfolio size should be based on, first, the number of donors that you have. For a full caseload of donors, we would recommend no more than 150 major donors in a major gift portfolio. To get to 150, you actually need 450 donors that meet your major gift metric. Let’s just say it’s [unintelligible 00:31:25] $1,000 a year. They hit the 1,000 mark, that doesn’t necessarily mean they should be in a portfolio. You need to go through that qualifying process I talked about. We know from all of our experience that only a third of donors will qualify who meet a metric. That’s why you need 450 to get to 150.

You may not have that many. You may only have 100 donors that meet that metric. That means only 30 donors will actually end up in a caseload. The donor data actually drives the portfolio size, and the percentage of time that a major gift officer would need to work on it. Let’s say you only have 30 donors. That’s only 20% basically of a full-time job. We see the executive directors in very small organizations really carve out their time if they know, hey, 20% of my time I’m going to be spending with these 30 donors, and they manage their workload that way.

Lori: From Sandra, she’s asking how much above your budget goal do you recommend you stretch the goal?

Jeff: It’s by individual. When we sit down with frontline fundraisers and go through goal setting for every one of their donors, we all have a management goal, and that’s based on their previous giving, what we know about the donor, all these things. Some donors can be 20%, some donors 10%, some is 50%. It really depends by each donor, but we have a management goal that we send to finance, and their manager. Then just between us and the fundraiser, we have an aspirational goal, and that is, okay, if we really focused on this person and things went well, instead of $15,000, what do you think we could get this year?

We go back and forth. Well, maybe it should be 20 or maybe it should be 17,500. That’s the goal we really [inaudible 00:33:47] have the MGO focus on. Because, amazingly, more often than not, when there is a goal, we meet the goal, and that’s why we have these aspirational goals. It’s not really a blanket percentage. It’s based on individual donors and what we know about those donors.

Lori: We have someone who is asking, I’ve been doing all this with my team, but the overall org culture does not support these principles. One staff member already left but made it clear she was quitting because of the organization, not the team. How can I keep my team if the organization culture is broken, but the team culture is strong? I love that question.

Jeff: It is a great question, and that story I told about the MGO. Her boss really went to bat for her, but she came up against this big HR juggernaut that basically said, “No, you cannot give her a raise. She is this level of a pay and we just won’t do it.” She tried everything to get her this raise and it didn’t happen. The same situation. Her team, she understood that, hey, this is nothing. $8,000 compared to what this person brings in for us every year through her portfolio, it’s nothing, but she couldn’t go up against her– She basically said, her managers called me and said, “I almost quit.” But what happened from that experience was that the organization actually did change their policy, so that if this happened in the future, this would not happen again.

All I can say is, if you’re leading your team like we talked about today, that’s all you can do, and then to try to manage up your boss, their boss, to try to say, “Look, my team is solid. We’re going to lose people because of the culture that you’ve created, and here are the things that need to happen.” All you can do is be an advocate for your team in the larger organization, and if still nothing happens, then maybe it is time for you to leave and find an organization that believes in your management style and supports it.

Because you cannot continue to be in a place where you’re managing a team one way, but your people are leaving because the larger organization, their culture and how they do things is messed up, and they’re not going to change. I would give it as much as you can to try to see if you can change it internally.

Lori: Okay. We have another question. What if I’m a fundraiser, have let the organization to know what I need, as in financial and personal growth-wise. They’ve made promises and such down the line, but the assets the organization once had, they no longer have to offer. How can I meet the organization halfway, or is it quitting time?

Jeff: Well, I will go back. Obviously it sounds like you’ve put this out in front of them, and basically they’re saying we can’t do it all. I would say, hey, this is what I need for my job and to grow. I might not be able to get all the things I’m asking for, but could I get this and this? If they still say no, then yes, it is time to leave. You are in a power position. If you are a frontline fundraiser, you are in the power position in the nonprofit world. Every worker right now in the US is in the power seat.

They have the ability to ask more for more salary, better benefits, and more from management, and you need to take advantage of it. Because for many years, that wasn’t the case, but now we’re in a position where frontline fundraisers need to get what they need, in order to be able to do their job well. If you’re a manager or leader in a nonprofit, you need to be starting to think about, what do I need to do here to keep these good people? Because it’s much more expensive to let these people go.

Lori: Yes, I agree. I don’t have any more questions in Q&A. I’m just going to go into the live chat and see if we have anything else. We have Deidre who’s actually hiring number two for her department.

Jeff: All right.

Lori: Okay, I’m not seeing any more questions, unless anybody else is going to throw anything into the Q&A. We’ll give it just a quick second before we finish up.

Jeff: I hope if you’re a frontline fundraiser, that you are asking for things that you need to do your job better, and I hope if you’re a manager or executive director, that you really start looking at how you’re retaining folks and making your organization a place where you develop that culture of philanthropy, so that you have that baseline. You created that structure for people so that they know what their expectations are, and that it’s very clear about what they do. Because these are some of the biggest reasons why people move on from another organization to another. I wish you well.

Lori: We did have a question pop up. The question is any recommendations on how to celebrate a fundraiser?

Jeff: Yes, so many. Let’s say, a big gift comes in from a donor that they’ve been cultivating for a long time and it’s an amazing transformational gift. This is a great time to celebrate that major gift officer, celebrate the donor, celebrate the program that’s going to benefit from that gift. All of those things come together, and that you invite not just the development folks, but all the people in that organization, so that folks can understand that everything is connected. So that that gift that the donor is giving is connected, is making your programs run better, or it’s creating something that wasn’t there before.

Inviting all those people around and talking about the donor and having the major gift officer talk about how this all happened, so that everyone understands the process that it went through, is an amazing thing. You’re celebrating the major gift officer, but you’re celebrating them by letting them tell the story of the donor to everyone in that organization. That is so powerful to do. I think that’s probably the greatest way to celebrate a big gift like that and the major gift officer who helped bring that in, is to allow them to tell the story of that whole process and the donor.

Lori: All right, it looks like that is all I have. I know we’re going to be few minutes early, and that’s okay, if everybody got what they need out of the session, then that’s all that matters. I’m going to finish up but first, I do want to thank you, Jeff, for spending another afternoon with us. It was really great to have you presenting.

Jeff: It was great being here.

Lori: It sounds like everybody else did too.

Jeff: Thanks, Lori. Appreciate it. Thanks, everyone.

Lori: Thank you all for attending. Up next, we have Liking to Loving, connecting to your social media audience. Connecting your social media audience to your mission. Then we have digital payments in a digital world. No matter what track you choose, you will always have the recorded content of the other. We hope to see you in the next few sessions. Thanks so much.