Nonprofit Expert Episode 9 – Cultivating Resilient Nonprofit Leadership

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Robbe HealeyHost00:15

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DonorPerfectAd00:03

Welcome to Nonprofit Expert presented by DonorPerfect.

Robbe HealeyHost00:15

Thank you for joining us and welcome to Nonprofit Expert presented by DonorPerfect. I’m Robbe Healey and we’re continuing our conversation about case and culture and courage, and today we’re focusing on culture. Specifically, we’re focusing on culture change and culture change within an organization, when you are actually the leader, the one who gets to steer the change. And the conversation I’m having today is with Lauren Sheehan, who is president of DonorPerfect. And as I was thinking about this conversation, I was reminded of an article I read quite a long time ago.

10 years ago was in the Stanford Social Innovations Review and it was about impactful leaders, and I want to read this because I want to get the quote right. One of the research findings in the article, which was by Jane Y Skillern, david Erlichman and David Sawyer, was the single most important factor behind all successful collaborations is trust based relationships among participants. If you agree that successful culture change requires collaboration, the many points in their article seem at least, if not more, relevant than today, and I know Lauren’s going to give us many things to think about when we’re due for culture change. So, before we get involved in the questions, tell us about yourself, introduce yourself.

Lauren SheehanGuest01:42

My name is Lauren Sheehan, I’m the president of DonorPerfect, and if I think about my journey, I think it’s I’m going to start all the way back that it is long as I can remember. I have always thought it was really important to give back and be involved in, you know, making the world a better place. You can ask my mom she would tell you funny stories about me organizing, I don’t know recycling in our development, and it was just an important part of who I was. So when I graduated from college, I had a big decision where was I going to land? And I actually got a job with a company that was providing consultant services to technology companies. So I was pretty green, and I was visiting these large technology companies like Motorola, seagate and Agilent Technologies, qualcomm, trying to understand how they worked, how they got their job done, and so it was an amazing experience.

I was traveling all over, I was having a lot of fun and certainly learning a lot, but there was just something missing. You know we have to. We’re spending a lot of our time, most of our waking hours, at work, and so that element of like being fulfilled and having that broader impact it was just missing. So I decided I needed to look for another job, and I think I went on Career Builder at the time and I found that there was a technology company that was all of two miles away from my house that was looking for a client relations manager that worked exclusively with nonprofit organizations. I applied for the job. It was the only job that I applied for and that was 15 years ago so I got hired at Donor Perfect 15 years ago.

I have been part of that leadership team for all of that time and have held many different roles during my time at Donor Perfect Customer Care Manager, vice President of Customer Experience, and then, when one of my mentors, nathan Relis, one of the co-founders of the company, decided to retire, I moved into my current roles president, and things have been going pretty well. Robbie, we were just named a top workplace in the Philadelphia region. We got number four in the Philadelphia region. Thank you very much, and there have been a lot of unique challenges that we’ve navigated through. I’ve got a great team, and culture and people are my passion.

Robbe HealeyHost04:37

I think most of us didn’t wind up where we thought we would, yeah, so the way your journey went through that process is fascinating, and it’s interesting, I think, to follow someone. You called him a mentor. I think it’s always interesting to follow someone you admire. And here’s that old saying. You know I have big shoes to fill.

Lauren SheehanGuest04:55

I’m convinced.

Robbe HealeyHost04:56

We all bring our own shoes. We bring our own shoes. Yeah, you want to be respectful, but at the same time, when you’re navigating a culture change, I think you’re also navigating the way you honor the person who mentored you Absolutely, because my opinion is that person would never want you to keep things the same just because he or she had done it that way. Yep, so, as you were looking at the culture change you wanted to evolve at Donor Perfect, what were some of the critical first steps that you began to think about? Obviously, you were not an external person who was coming in to analyze something they’d never seen before, and you may have noticed things you thought yourself. I were in charge here, I might do this differently, or maybe not, but how did you begin to take those first critical steps in this process?

Lauren SheehanGuest05:48

Well, it was an interesting time.

So we were in the midst of dealing with the pandemic and navigating a lot of the changes that came along with that.

We had made the decision to declare ourselves as a remote first work environment and to stay that way as long as our results continued to be good. We were also experiencing some higher levels of attrition as part of the great resignation. So there were some headwinds that I faced, and so I really felt like my first mandate was really to just get an understanding of how people were feeling, what was going on, and so I was really on a listening tour, honestly, to try to better understand how employees were feeling and what we needed to do to. We’ve always had really an incredible culture, but these other things that these headwinds were creating some challenges for us, so I wanted to dive in. I know the people. I knew the people. I’ve worked alongside of them for so long and I believe that I was able to establish trust with them and I was there to learn from them about what needed to change and how we could turn the ship around.

Robbe HealeyHost07:17

When you raised a couple of interesting points that I was thinking about as I was listening to. First of all, how do you do a listening tour if everybody is remote, yeah. And secondly, then, imagining that you’ve listened to everybody you can possibly listen to, I would be shocked if you said they all agreed with each other.

Lauren SheehanGuest07:34

Oh no, you have to establish what well, at least what I did is. I established different ways to listen. Some of them were more scalable than others, because we have about 200 people that work at Donor Perfect, so it would take me forever and a day to interview and talk, and that’s a lot of listening, and you have a job to do in the meantime.

I do have a job to do in the meantime. So what I started to do was implement Anyone who was coming on board. I would be talking to them at the 30-day mark to understand what drew them to our organization, what they hope to achieve and really setting that stage from very early in their career with us that doors were open. I knew who they were. We’re doing this together. They’re a valued part of the team. So that was kind of a way, because we’re not hiring people every two days, so that was a way to be able to kind of keep up with it.

I talked with my leadership team about people that they thought were potentially at risk or had a lot to say. So that helped me prioritize those interviews. And then we implemented an employee satisfaction survey a couple times a year to be able to do it at a larger scale. We also have and we have this for our clients as well. So a lot of these applications or if I talk about listening posts, it’s not only for internal staff, it’s also for any stakeholder.

We do the same thing with our customers. We have interviews with our customers and we talk to our customers. We have a tool called Suggest and Vote, which enables employees to tell us what enhancements they would like to make Donor Perfect an even better place to work. And we have a different site but the same tool for our customers that they can tell us what features and enhancements they would find helpful and Donor Perfect. So those were the kind of different listening posts that I had set up and there was information overloaded. You start to develop or see certain themes and you can categorize it and then you have to work to prioritize that. Then you got to start taking action and reporting back on what you’re doing and how you’re doing it.

Robbe HealeyHost09:53

So that’s what I do. I want to come back to taking action, but I have one other question. You talked about a culture of trust that already existed. Yes, not everyone works in a workplace like that. Yeah, and perhaps not everyone who even works in the same workplace is equally comfortable with that. Did you ever have a sense? Or what would you do if you thought someone was just giving you answers? They thought you wanted to hear that’s?

Lauren SheehanGuest10:22

a hard question.

Robbe HealeyHost10:23

I think it is a hard question, but I think when you’re really interested in what people have to say, yeah, that becomes a speed bump. Because I think a lot of us and perhaps not as much with brand new hires right out of school, but people who maybe worked in a place where they weren’t valued they get used to the fact that they’ve got to say something when they’re asked, but it may not be what’s their visceral reaction.

Lauren SheehanGuest10:50

Yeah, I think that you can start to uncover their real feelings.

Robbe HealeyHost10:56

You have to ask for a specific question, you have to dig in, you want those specifics, so you’re talking about asking questions in such a form that you liberate people to think you actually want to know what they think.

Lauren SheehanGuest11:13

Yeah, actually want to know what they think, which is the truth. Yeah, like this is taking a lot of time, and it’s especially well, I don’t know. I’ve heard from team members that the fact that they’re talking to me, the president of the company, that’s just like a mind blowing thing. I’m sure it was. I mean it does take time, and that there is nothing more important. I’m getting pulled in a lot of different directions. But, first and foremost, every company, whatever you I mean, if you’re running a restaurant, a nonprofit organization, a hotel, the heart of every company is the people, and if you take good care of your employees, everything else falls into place. They will take care of one another, they will take care of your clients, and so it’s. I’ve made it a priority and I’m not just saying it, I’m walking the walk, and so that is like a different mindset and I hope that I’m gaining their trust through that, and so that I don’t want to just hear what’s great, I want to hear what can be improved, and that’s what I’m looking for.

Robbe HealeyHost12:21

Yeah. So you mentioned earlier, you know, the COVID-19 and everybody had to pivot. Oh boy, yeah. I think there it’s interesting. I keep hearing from some people I can’t wait till we get back to normal. Well, I’m convinced that’s ridiculous, whatever, I mean, it’s been years, it hasn’t been months. So I think some organizations are going back to what they knew, yep, instead of analyzing what are the things they really ought to keep, yeah, and what are the things that seem to get more convenient, that are really eventually going to hold them back. So how do you look at? What are the changes we made that we really ought to preserve because they’ve made us better, and what are the ones that, over time, will really weaken us? So, things we need to keep and things we need to make sure we don’t.

Lauren SheehanGuest13:14

So there were. I think that there are a lot of silver linings actually that came from COVID and it’s okay to say like we got this from COVID, some good things that came from it. I saw firsthand how nonprofit organizations, with no notice, no preparation, were able to just transform how they were connecting with donors, how they were going to manage an event virtually, and so I don’t know lessons learned about what we can do to make things work and how we can do hard things and innovate and adapt. So that was like that’s worth keeping Reflects, those muscles they got a good exercise during COVID and I want us to, I challenge everybody to continue to think about maybe it’s not forced upon us in the same kind of chaotic way, but keep that pressure of innovation and adaptability. So that’s what comes to mind first.

Other silver linings of COVID for organizations. I think about how it forced conversations about flexible work arrangements, which I think are really, really important, especially if we look at the fact that 75% of people that are working in the nonprofit industry are women and I think that that additional flexibility is helpful to everyone, but I think that especially for women. So I think that that was a good thing, a silver lining, if you will. One other thing that comes to mind is just the focus on mental health and work-life balance. So I think that it became through COVID. It became okay to talk about those topics that still have a stigma around them related to mental health, and then I guess the. I already talked about the flexibility for work, but those are some things that I think that we should keep. Work-life balance is important. We talk all the time about nonprofit professionals being burnt out. I think COVID changed a lot of those conversations and the idea.

I hope they did. I really do. That’s what I want for this industry is less talk about burnout and more talk about how we can make the most of the time that we’re putting into work. It is, you know, it is a big part of our lives. It’s an important part of our lives, but it’s not our whole life.

Robbe HealeyHost15:50

It’s always interesting to me when we face some kind of national crisis, the powers that be will say the nonprofits should step up and do something. Well, we happen, but you just didn’t know you needed us until and we’re quietly changing the world, and then a giant mess happens, like COVID, and they realize they need us. So I want them to remember us too.

I wish that would stick. I’m not sure it will. I’m really not sure that it will. I guess I wonder, as you’re talking about encouraging creativity, is there a way that you’ve discovered to reward people for calling out things that aren’t working instead of being afraid to speak up? And I think there’s a difference between attacking someone, Sure sure. And with dignity and caring, saying you know, we’ve been doing this this way for so long. What if we looked at this yeah, is that something you’re talking about?

Lauren SheehanGuest16:46

It’s interesting that you say that. So I had mentioned earlier that we did make the move to remote first, but we have in-service days where everybody kind of gathers together, and one of the things that we did for the last session was invite an improv group to come and talk with us. And so when we’re talking about the biggest, I don’t know the philosophy of what makes good improv is the idea of yes and and, so how we can build on ideas of others, and that status quo can be boring right.

And it isn’t so much fun and destructive, and destructive, and destructive. So that’s one thing that comes to mind related to like just getting people to open up and be invested in what we’re doing at work, and if there are some things that aren’t working, we kind of recycled the phrase. You know, see something, say something, but I think that’s huge.

Robbe HealeyHost17:55

Yeah, because you’ve got so many people who’ve worked in places where they got in trouble for doing that. Yeah, and what you’re talking about is strengthening an organization by talking about what’s not working now yeah.

Yeah, and it’s all I mean. You’re talking about so many things and you know me well enough to know I like to think in bunches of three. Yes, and I think the first thing I hear you talking about is listening, and that you have to be constantly listening. Not that I’m out on the shop floor and I’m listening to everybody and then I go back in the office and close the door, but I check the box, I listen to everybody.

Lauren SheehanGuest18:28

Yeah.

Robbe HealeyHost18:29

And then you look at everything, you analyze everything you heard and it may reveal patterns that you really want to preserve or you really want to make sure you don’t preserve. Yeah, and I think the last thing you talked about was only keeping the right things. Mm-hmm, you talked about the silver lining. I talked to think about the next shiny thing. Yeah, how can you make sure you’re keeping the substance, not the glitter? Yeah, if you’re listening to this and you believe all that and you’re not in the power role, are there things you think people can begin to do differently, so they can take some of the elements that you’ve been successful with and begin to adapt them in their workplace? Or if you are the CEO or the executive director, you can’t just say well, I listened to this podcast, lauren. She said do these four things? Yeah, how do you gradually insert that into the way you work?

Lauren SheehanGuest19:31

OK, good question. If you are not in steering the ship, so to speak, there are some ways that you would be able to do it at whatever level that you’re at, potentially with your department, leading that department or not. Like, let’s do a recap or a retro of the project that we just did. What worked, what didn’t? I mean stop, start, continue is a really easy way to be able to evaluate a workflow, a specific project, even something at even a smaller scale. So, just wanting to continue to strive to do better by talking about what didn’t work and highlighting what did work, it’s a balance. So maybe there’s just some ways that, at whatever level that you’re at, that you can invite and encourage those conversations.

Robbe HealeyHost20:31

I think your point about whatever level you’re at is huge.

Lauren SheehanGuest20:34

Yes.

Robbe HealeyHost20:35

I think so many organizations just keep on keeping on because they’re afraid of rocking the boat. But you can do it in a way as you’ve described, even if you’re evaluating an event, perhaps or an appeal that didn’t work as well as you wanted. What are the things we want to keep? What are the things we want to make sure we don’t do, because I think there are so many sacred cows and we don’t have the courage to let things sunset when they need to?

Lauren SheehanGuest21:02

Yeah, and with something like I don’t know. Are you familiar with Stop, start, continue as a way to just kind of review a project?

Robbe HealeyHost21:10

It sounds like something I would love.

Lauren SheehanGuest21:11

OK, ok. Well, it’s good for a lot of different things and it can be utilized in a couple of different ways, even mediating conflicts between two employees that might be having a disagreement. What do you want me to stop doing? What do I need to start doing to make this better, and what is helpful to me for you to continue to do? That’s perfect, and I mean that way we’re giving space for the positive, while we’re also talking about having those critical conversations as well. We’re not going to get better just plotting along, doing the same old things. We have to question, and we should invite those conversations.

And if you model that behavior, if you’re asking for feedback yourself and changing and changing right and not just not, because it’s more than just listening, it’s acting as well Then it’ll catch on. I think everybody, the heart of all of us, we want to do better and improve and I, hope so anyway. I hope so too. I hope so too. I think so. I know so Again, regardless of whatever level that you’re at, that you might be able to start introducing some of these, just getting comfortable with having those types of conversations.

Robbe HealeyHost22:30

And that’s the culture change anyway, right on Everyone I’ve talked to in this series. I’ve asked them the last question, the same Are there things that you would never, ever repeat, things you would always want to hang on to? And if you hit a brick wall, do you have any hot tips for how to get through the brick wall?

Lauren SheehanGuest22:55

Brick wall. Ok, a chisel. No, maybe a chisel, maybe a chisel, yeah. So things that, a lesson that I would want to kind of share with everybody listening, not to do. I’ve learned this from my own experience is the quickest way to failure is thinking that you can make everybody happy. Accept that.

Robbe HealeyHost23:21

Accept that. Well and I don’t know about you, but I’ve had the experience that if you give a person like that everything they want, they’re still not happy. Yeah, one more. So it becomes a continuum of dissatisfaction and it’s losing.

Lauren SheehanGuest23:37

Yeah, yeah, which brings which is a kind of an interesting segue to lessons that I learned that I would want others to continue or to learn from is the hiring and firing decisions that you make are the most important decisions that you make. So higher, slow, and if there is some and they say, fire fast. I struggle to say that because this is somebody’s livelihood, but I have found that it is important to make those hard decisions to let people go when it is not a fit. Energy is transferable, positive or negative. So if there’s somebody that’s really not working out or not performing, other people are seeing that and that can be just you know they cancerous, right?

So that’s, the hiring and firing decisions that you make are probably the most important as a leader. And then if you hit a brick wall, besides the chisel, you gotta ask for help. And so building a network of some people have a mentor, some people build a network where they have their own almost like personal board that’s helping them, being so generous with their help for one another and gracious about sharing advice and being generous with their time. So if you do not have that network, work on building that and when you hit a brick wall, ask for help.

Robbe HealeyHost25:09

I heard so many people who, especially people later in their careers, who come from the for-profit sector into the nonprofit sector, say you people are all so nice. Yeah, but I think that is part of the kind of the culture of the sector is to be very helpful with each other.

Lauren SheehanGuest25:26

Yeah, and there’s different ways to be generous, right Generous with your time and your experience and your knowledge and be generous with your ears listening. You know it’s good.

Robbe HealeyHost25:37

Well, thank you very much for spending time with us today. I know some of the lessons you’ve learned yourself will continue the way they are, and others you’re probably going to say, well, we’re not going to keep that one, we’re going to look for the next better thing.

Lauren SheehanGuest25:53

So we’ll have to do this again in a couple of years after.

Robbe HealeyHost25:55

We can that would be fun. I learned a few more lessons and I’m sure that the people who are listening to this will have found some kernels of good advice that they can take in their own workplace. But thank you again for spending time with us. Yeah, thank you, Ravi.

Lauren SheehanGuest26:09

It’s been a pleasure.

Robbe HealeyHost26:10

Thank you. So you’ve been listening to non-profit expert presented by Donor Perfect. Thank you for joining us for Case Culture and Courage.

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