Nonprofit Expert Episode 16 – Unlock Nonprofit Leadership Potential

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Welcome to Nonprofit Expert presented by DonorPerfect.

Julia Gackenbach Host 00:13

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DonorPerfect Ad 00:03

Welcome to Nonprofit Expert presented by DonorPerfect.

Julia Gackenbach Host 00:13

Hello, welcome to Nonprofit Expert presented by DonorPerfect. My name is Julia Gackenbach and I’m here with our guest, Kishshana Palmer. Kishshana is an international speaker, trainer and coach with 20 plus years in fundraising, marketing and talent management. She helps leaders create high-performing teams. She’s the CEO of Management Incorporated, an organization development firm focused on helping everyday leaders live well and lead well. Her firm’s work centers on equity and social justice and practical solutions for today’s organizations. She’s also the founder of the Rooted Collaborative, a global community focused on the growth and development of women leaders of color in the social sector. She’s a certified fundraising executive and an AFP master trainer, among many other accolades. Kashana, thank you so much for being here.

Kishshana Palmer Guest 01:11

Thank you so much for having me, you know, an opportunity to be able to bring some joy forward into what we do. And the reason I didn’t say bring joy back is because I don’t think we’ve kind of like the joy hasn’t gone completely, but it feels like when the pilot on the stove is a little low, it’s a little bit on, a little bit on simmer, and we want to just kind of kick it up and bring that spark back to what we do and to how we amplify and activate our mission. So, so excited to be here with you today. I am now in the city of Atlanta, jules, can you imagine now, from a New Yorker now I’m transitioning to being an adopted Georgia peach? Come on, a little apple, a little apple a little peach.

Julia Gackenbach 01:56

Oh, okay, I like the mixture. I like that mixture Okay.

Kishshana Palmer 01:59

So thank you, I love it Great.

Julia Gackenbach 02:03

Well, we are definitely appreciative of your energy. We know this is going to be a great conversation and I have to say when I was a full-time fundraiser which I was before I worked with Donor Perfect I followed you pretty closely so I’ll try not to fangirl too hard over chatting with you. Just to be candid, there were definitely times where I was feeling discouraged in my role and your powerful, upbeat encouragement really helped me so much. I’m sure many of our listeners feel the same. So, on behalf of past Julia and some of our listeners, I just want to thank you for your consistent positive message, and you’ve already shown that in the five minutes we’ve been talking. So I’m just so grateful for you and for the spark that you do bring to the nonprofit world.

Kishshana Palmer 02:47

I so appreciate that.

Julia Gackenbach 02:49

One area that you’ve been speaking about recently in fact, you spoke about it at Donor Perfect’s community conference in June of 2024, is leadership in the nonprofit sector. So I want to dig into that a little bit. Dig in, yes, okay. So let’s start with a foundational question how would you define nonprofit leadership and the way that you discuss it? So, for example, if someone is listening that’s not an executive director, can they just like tune out? Now? Is it only executive directors or what is I know? I’m glad that that’s your answer. I just want to make sure we’re all on the same page?

03:22

Yes, exactly so. Who so who should be listening to things when we discuss nonprofit leadership today?

Kishshana Palmer 03:28

Every single person. Whether you are an intern, you know pushing paper for the first time, hoping to be seen. Or you are an assistant or associate, just cutting your teeth and you’ve got lots of bright ideas, but you don’t understand the bureaucracy and the red tape and why do things take so long? Or if you’re a mid-career professional who’s kind of seen some things right and you’re wondering okay, I love being able to have impact and participate in impact, but I’m not really understanding how I move and is anybody gonna ever retire? Or if you are a seasoned professional and you’re like when is my next act? Because we’re not going to talk about our final act.

04:08

Leadership is for all of us. It is really thinking about how do I serve in a way that allows others to show up most powerfully. And so when you’re a leader and you’re leading up, when you’re a newer professional in your career, it’s about understanding how to read the room and really understanding how to anticipate the needs of the folks that you report to and being able to make their roles easy. That might be an unpopular opinion, but that’s what I always tell all my teams and all the folks I coach. And when I train folks, I say listen, your job is to make your manager job easy, and if everybody understands that, then we are going to be rocking and rolling, and then we can deal with personalities and we can deal with all that kind of stuff. And then when you are looking at potentially moving into the C-suite, depending on the size of your organization, it’s really about understanding what makes people tick.

05:03

How do people want to live and work? How do they show up? What is their desires of the heart? And a lot of times I think we don’t dig into that because we think, oh, I’m just here to do the job. Being a leader is really about understanding how you show up in the world in each season of your life and being able to pour into yourself so that you’re getting that skill set build, you’re able to lean into your talents, you might even be able to show a gift or two and you’re committed to stewarding your career the way you would steward donors. And I think that we think about that definition a little bit more broadly, because notice, I didn’t get into servant leadership and surrounding yourself with genius. All those those things are also true. But the thing that many of us overlook in the cocktail of being a true leader is what ingredients are we putting into ourselves?

Julia Gackenbach 05:56

That’s great. I love that and you know, obviously we’re talking about nonprofits here, but the whole time we were talking I was like, wow, I can use this in my life as being a mother. I can use this in my life as being a volunteer. I can use this in my life in so many ways. So, yes, for those listeners who think that this does not apply to them because they do not have a C in their title at their organization, that is wrong. You need to listen up, because I know Kishshana has so much information for us today and I’m really excited. One of the things that I mentioned before is that you spoke about this at the Donor Perfect Conference and you had five main points in that session. So I want to dig into those main points, have more of a conversation about those. So why don’t you share what those five main pillars are and we’ll go from there?

Kishshana Palmer 06:43

Absolutely so. I love, love, love when I’m able to break down something into a really neat acronym. Doesn’t happen to me often, but I love it. So we’re going to talk about this spark, right, what is the spark of leadership and how can you ignite it? So let’s start with the letter S and let’s talk about how we share information.

07:00

Oftentimes we think, oh my gosh, I’m only going to be valuable if I hoard the information I have, so we’re less likely to ask for help and we’re less likely to be able to want to groom folks to be able to step into our role to replace us. But what if we looked at it as an opportunity to be able to really share the workload and so sharing information not just policies and procedures, but the practices, the unwritten playbooks that each of us have within our organizations, that we have to be willing to introduce those things into the normal way we do business, at team retreats, at step backs, at monthly meetings, at town halls. However your organization gathers and brings people together. That sharing information in real time is a critical, critical ingredient to ensuring that you keep that spark in your leadership. Otherwise, you’re going to feel like you have an anvil on your shoulder blades, and I know there’s a lot of folks out there that are like whoa the weight is heavy right now.

Julia Gackenbach 08:05

Yes, I totally agree with that, and it’s interesting because it’s, you know, sometimes in the nonprofit world we say, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, nobody’s going to know what I did here, and that’s a little bit of a scary idea. I mean, I hope nobody gets hit by a bus. Maybe let’s say if I won the lottery tomorrow and didn’t have to work anymore, then what would they do? Yeah, yeah, true, good point. So this is a great way to fix that, in the sense of if everybody knows what’s going on, the anvil, as you mentioned, is not fully on your shoulders, it’s a shared weight. Absolutely Great point, absolutely Okay. What about the next point?

Kishshana Palmer 08:45

Let’s talk about the P. So that’s playing to our strengths. So one of the things that I talk a lot about is that many of us hire for skills, and skills are the things that you learn and then you typically get compensated for. But what I would like us to do is start thinking about playing to our talents, and those are the things that come easiest to you and that you can decide whether you want to be compensated or not. And then even one up our gifts, and those are the things we were born with, and many of us, by the time we get into our career after years of education, we lose sight of our gifts, and so we spend a lot of time trying to work on our deficits, the things that we’re not great at.

09:24

But let’s face it, if you are a messy Molly, I don’t care how many HDTV episodes you watch, how many TikTok videos you lean into, how much ASMR organization videos you love, baby, you’re only going to be mediocre at best, because it’s just not your jam.

09:44

But if your jam is planning, for example, and you really lean into that, and so then you watch the plan in TikToks and you jump into those things and you take the course, et cetera, then you’re going to go over something you’re really really good at, to be an excellent at, and so part of leadership is being able to identify first your own strengths and then being able to articulate how folks can help you manage the things you’re not great at, and then also being able to recognize the strengths in others. I think oftentimes we get way too caught up in. This is my job description. This is what the job description is supposed to do, when most of our job descriptions, if we’re being honest, are just a ticker tape of to-do list tasks. They’re not actually the responsibilities. That’s the what that gets us to where we need to go, because your job is supposed to be about you being able to exercise your how, and so leaning into strengths and being able to really recognize those strengths, I think, is critical to being able to have that spark.

Julia Gackenbach 10:45

That’s great, do you? You mentioned um, you know, identifying your own strengths and identifying other people’s strengths. Do you have any tips on how you can do that? How do you find those things so?

Kishshana Palmer 10:55

I might be a little biased because I’m a Clifton strengths coach. I, you know I do um, gallup, clifton coaching, um, and. But I fell into it long before I ever knew coaching was a thing. Okay, in my 20s y’all, when I had my c-suite role and it was me, my team and I we were all about the same age. We had these big goals. We didn’t know what to do and I went to a fundraising conference and there was this one um, one class. That was a session that was called finding your freak within. Whoo, oh right, hello, and it was about learning and leaning into what you were good at, and so I happened to take at that time it was called strength finder. So I happened to take the cliff assessment then and, believe it or not, julie, I just took it for the first time again in 15 years, because I’m one of the people who do not believe in taking it more than once.

11:42

And I learned that some of those assessments that we love whether it’s enneagram or a disc, or I call this a red light, green light or clifton strengths we take them. We’re like, oh, that’s who I am. It’s an indication of how you show up in the world when you’re at your best and when you’re at your most stressed, and so how do you lean into your strength? You step back and go. What are the things that naturally just come to me? I just get it. I know how that’s typically in your talent area and those are the themes that I want you to be able to lean into. And then if you want to dig deeper and you want to kind of know more, then you got to bring my team in where we help you to do your CliftonStrengths assessment and we kind of dig in. I’m about do that with another team this week and really dig into how do you apply that not to just where you work, but to where you live, because everywhere you go, y’all there you are Very true, that’s great, thank you.

Julia Gackenbach 12:34

OK, so we’re talking through the acronym SPARK. We talked about sharing information, we talked about playing to strengths. Now what is the A in SPARK?

Kishshana Palmer 12:43

Absolutely so, asking for input and appreciating different ideas. So one of the biggest frustrations that I hear from my clients, particularly when I do large strategic planning events or do things that we got to bring in a lot of voices, is that they do not feel heard. Well, you asked me for my input but you didn’t do anything with it. So understanding that input does not mean decision making is one thing we got to get clear on that. Making is one thing you got to get clear on that.

13:16

But when you’re actually bringing folks into the conversation and asking for input and naming what the input will influence, then you’re able to create space for different ideas to show up in the room. You’re able to create space for risk and for the folks who are risk adverse to name like I don’t know. We should think about this. So you get to have that dialogue and oftentimes, when you don’t invite in that input or when your team members do not believe that their voices will be heard or they don’t even have space to have a voice, then you find organizations becoming very flat, very stagnant, kind of boring, and we are in a time where we’ve got to move away from being reactive to what’s happening socially, because we are the social safety net to being responsive. In order to be responsive, you got to invite in other voices, and so that’s where, for me, that A comes in appreciating different ideas and asking for input.

Julia Gackenbach 14:11

That’s great. I love that, and you know we just talked through playing to strengths. This asking for input feeds off of that. If you know the strengths in the room and your strength is not planning, you need to ask for some input from someone else. If the P is happening, then the A should happen too, because you know there are different strengths in the room. That’s great. Okay, how about R and Spark?

Kishshana Palmer 14:36

So when we think about R, I’m supposed to be like is it going to be revenue? No, recognizing and responding to individual needs One of the things when I coach or advise my executive leaders you’ve got to lean into knowing what is driving your team at this point and you’ve got to be willing to have those check-ins. And it’s not enough to say, well, you should love the mission. I mean. Furthermore, when I interview four teams and I’m giving some advice on, like what you’d be looking for, loving the mission is not on my list. Because if you do your job well, when you step into your organization, you’re going to be out with the program team. You’re going to be out with the program team. You’re going to get to experience the work that’s going to send you over the edge anyway.

15:18

But if you don’t love your job, if you’re in accounts payable, but you don’t love accounts payable, I don’t care what I do.

15:29

You are not going to feel like you’re doing what you need to do. You’re not going to love it. And so really being able to understand individual needs and to just put a finer point on it understand individual needs and to just put a finer point on it 70% of your team’s success in terms of engagement at work relies on the manager, and so if you are in that top spot and you don’t understand your C team, then you’re not creating space for them to feel like they can lean into their teams. So then we have a triple down effect of folks being afraid to show up wholly at work, and so it’s really critical to know somebody might just be in this job because it’s the job they’re gonna do before grad school. So how do we make sure that this is a healthy experience for them and we get our goals met and they’re prepared to go on to their next thing right, and so really being able to think about how to activate mission differently by anticipating your team’s needs.

Julia Gackenbach 16:20

I love that. That’s great. And again, all of these are really feeding each other, because if someone has specific strengths and applies input in different spaces, and then you can anticipate the needs in the room of each individual, and this also goes beyond the workforce of the organization. We have to anticipate the needs of the people benefiting from our mission, and how do we do that in a way that shows leadership and kindness to those who are receiving things from our organization. I think that’s a great point. Okay, we’ve gone through S for sharing information, p playing to strengths, a asking for input and appreciating ideas, r responding to individual needs. Okay, what is the last one? What is the K in SPARK?

Kishshana Palmer 17:09

Woo. So it’s gonna make somebody say, ouch, keep your commitments. Say, ouch, keep your commitments. Oh, that does yep, yep, that does, that hits.

17:22

I listen, I’m one of those folks that I I I would over promise all the time and then flog my guts out to get it done because I did not want to under deliver. But what if you tried a different way and you said here are the bottom line things that I’m committed to, and here’s what would need to be true in order to hold to those commitments? Because if you reorganize your thoughts in that way and you move differently in that way, then what you do is you introduce accountability as love it means. I see you, I’m committed to what you said you want to do. I’m committed to what I said I want to do. I’m committed to what I said I want to do and I want you to hold me to that account, to make sure I get where I said we got to go and so keeping your commitments.

18:03

Not telling your team you’re going to do A and then you do B. Not saying you’re going to show up here but then you don’t, not promising something because it sounds good in the moment and then you can’t figure out how to work your way back to it, and we’ve all been guilty of it, all of us. But being able to come back to that K, keeping the commitments you made to yourself and to your team, I think is gonna be really important. It’ll encourage us to make fewer commitments but to be really serious about the commitments we do make.

Julia Gackenbach 18:32

And I mean you need to be able to rely on your leaders. Right, and leadership quality is being reliable. You need to be able to rely on the people that you’re leaning on. That’s a great one, I think. What do you think? I think these five points can kind of be sorted into two camps. So there’s the sharing info and keeping your commitments. This is like a transparency camp kind of a. You know, you need to be authentic and transparent, you need to keep your commitments and share information. That’s right. And then there’s this other camp of the playing to strengths, asking for input and responding to individual needs. That’s kind of like a diversity camp of like a diversity camp. You need to be able to see that people on your team are different from you, different from each other, and you need to appreciate their diversity. So there’s this authenticity, transparency camp and this diversity camp. Do you have any thoughts on how to make those two really important things thrive in your organization? How do you make transparency and diversity thrive in an organization?

Kishshana Palmer 19:36

I mean, I think that those two things go together. So I thematically feel different and I know our design, our impulse is to pull things apart. But what I would say is thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, thinking about how things show up, equity at work should be the bedrock of your organization, so it’s not its own separate thing, it’s in everything, it’s in the soup y’all. And so, in having an organization that has a culture and culture to the set of behaviors that encourage folks to speak up, that encourage folks to bring the self that they want to bring to work, that encourages folks to lean into their strengths, to fail fast, to ask for help, that names that you’re not going to be held punitively if you make a mistake. That models vulnerability. That’s not full vulnerability vulnerability.

20:29

Okay, we don’t need faux furs in here leaders, um, but that really says I’m human and I sometimes I don’t need faux furs in here leaders, but that really says I’m human and sometimes I don’t get it right, like these are the things that are so critical to being able to encourage others to operate from a transparent place, to provide that context, to be honest, right To not always live in this CYA mode, and it also invites in the opportunity to be able to try new things, to maybe step out. I remember I had a team member who was an amazing event planner, had no idea whatsoever because she was in data, and it wasn’t until I’d hit a pickle in an event we were playing. I do not love planning events, no matter how good I am at them, and she raised her hand and said well, I probably could help with that. I have a vendor I can call A what now?

21:18

Oh, okay, she had a whole network because that was what she did for her passion outside of work. And being able to live in an environment at work where you can be transparent means that I might have a passion or a side hustle that could be helpful, and I’m not afraid to share it because I’m not afraid of being penalized because I like to do other stuff other than work.

Julia Gackenbach 21:41

So really I mean don’t we all right?

Kishshana Palmer 21:42

I think those are some of the ways to start to be able to actually think about them more as a blend, and that it’s a balance, and sometimes it’s going to be some paradoxes. Things are going to be true on the one hand and not true on this hand, and they have to live in the same place. So, being able to lean and I love that it is this thread that goes through- everything.

Julia Gackenback 22:17

It can’t be sprinkled in wherever we choose. It has to be built from the roots, and that’s incredibly important, especially for nonprofits who are serving such diverse communities, such diverse missions. You interact with so many people from a nonprofit world, from huge donors to people that are visiting a food pantry. It’s quite a spectrum, and so having this diversity thread through everything is such an important part of leadership. Okay, so now my next question and this is maybe a little bit difficult and I don’t mean to be frank here but now we know okay, we know the five points, we know the S-P-A-R-K. Now what? What do we do with that information? How do we get this into our organizations, especially for those listening that maybe don’t have a leadership title in their organization. What do they do to help infuse this into their day-to-day work?

Kishshana Palmer 23:19

So start with your team. One of the things I think is important is that we always think like, okay, well, if I don’t hold this particular position of power, that I don’t have influence, and that’s actually not true. And so being able to say, okay, what are the things that I can do personally, so each of us can actually share information. And so I find this, particularly with my team members, who have had some really bad work experiences. They’re reluctant to share what they know. They don’t want to show you the first draft of what they’re doing.

23:48

So being able to go, hey, this is real, real rough, but I wanted, but I wanted to give you a first pass and would love some feedback is a way to step forward. Being able to say I heard this really great podcast and I’m dropping it in the team chat and would love us to talk about it at our next team meeting, even if you only spend five minutes on it, that’s another way to share information and step forward. So each of us, in our own ways, can take a small step forward. So my challenge actually is in hearing the different things you can do to be able to spark and ignite your leadership. What is one small thing that you can do from where you’re at. I’m actually not the best person to tell you that. You’re the best person to tell you that, and if you are in a work experience where you say, kashana, I just can’t see my way to any of that then I want to challenge you to spark yourself into a different role.

Julia Gackenbach 24:41

Spark right on over.

Kishshana Palmer 24:44

And because a lot of us do things where we feel trapped. I love the mission so much but you hate your coworkers. Oh my God, you know like you’ve got to love where you work. At least you got to like it, you know. So really being able to go, is this the right place for me? Am I living the life that I imagined for myself? Am I leaning into the things that actually show, like, how I do things really well? Are my skills are the only thing being tapped, or am I really leaning to these places where my strengths and my talents can be too Like? Really being introspective is a way to spark your own leadership, regardless of whether you hold that C-suite, that VP title or not.

Julia Gackenbach 25:20

Well and we touched on this a little bit earlier there are so many people affected by organizations. Like I said, you sit down with donors who can give gifts with multiple zeros and you sit down with someone who is visiting your shelter to adopt a pet. There are people all over the spectrum. So what would you say? How could these leadership qualities affect those people, the people who are outside of your office, maybe your donors, the people benefiting from your organization? How does your leadership trickle to them?

Kishshana Palmer 26:01

I think people get excited when they’re around others who share that excitement.

26:08

Oftentimes we’re not sure if that particular stakeholder is going to be really that excited or interested, so we get into this convincing mode, as opposed to being able to say I want to invite you to walk alongside me, so I’m just inviting you to be curious and operating from a sense of curiosity, when you’re going into spaces where you are introducing someone to your mission or you’re going to ask them to join you in doing the work in some way, whether they’re a volunteer to your mission, or you’re going to ask them to join you in doing the work in some way, whether they’re a volunteer, asking to be on your board, asking them to make a gift, asking them to do whatever the thing is.

26:40

They’ve got to see their way in that story, and so there’s got to be an invitation point, and so what I want folks to take more time to do is think about the invitation and not the expectation. You should want to do this. I mean maybe, but since we’re not there yet, what do we want to invite people into doing so that we can invite folks into our story, so that we can invite folks into the shareability of amplifying, activating on our mission.

Julia Gackenbach 27:09

That’s a great. I love that. It’s. It’s very mindful. You know, I think when I was in a nonprofit it was easy for me to just kind of go through the motions. I need to make this ask, I need to produce this event, I need to talk to this volunteer. But if we’re more mindful of these leadership qualities and we’re able to invest those in all the pockets of our organization, everyone benefits. Right, and it goes back to am I in the right seat? If I’m just going through the motions, should I even be here? And if I should be here and if I’ve been introspective, then being more conscious of how my leadership is affecting all areas of my organization is really helpful.

Kishshana Palmer 27:53

Really helpful, absolutely.

Julia Gackenbach 27:55

Okay. Well, this has been so great, so helpful, so practical. I just have one more question for you. As I mentioned at the beginning, you were such an encouragement to me as a fundraiser, as a development director, I learned so much from you. So for those listening, I’d just love if you could just give a positive word as we go out for our day today, whether we’re fundraising, whether we’re in accounts payable, whether we’re opening mail today at our nonprofit, what is something that you can help us to feel encouraged to continue to do this work?

Kishshana Palmer 28:29

Find something that is not related to work, that brings you joy, and make sure you do that as often as you can. I want folks to do that. That’s thing one.

28:42

Thing two I want us to get into the habit of learning for pleasure oh, I love that I don’t care if that’s listening, reading, watching, but learning, something that is not necessarily your job, but that opens your mind up, so that your brain stays activated, so that it stays moving and thinking. You’ll be able to bring some of those tools into the things you do day to day when you least expect it. And then, lastly, get outside, get some fresh air, get some sun, turn your face up to the sky, put your feet in the ground. If you can Go for a walk, if you can Get your body moving, it’s the one vessel you’ve got. And in order for us to be able to solve all of the problems and challenges and close the gaps in our social safety net that we are designed to do, you gotta be healthy friends, and so get out there and do that. So those are my three.

Julia Gackenbach 29:43

I love that. Thank you so much, kashana. It’s been such a pleasure to chat with you, to learn a little bit more about your leadership pillars, and I’m just hopeful that our listeners will be able to implement a lot of these very practical tools. So thank you so much for your time and thank you Of course.

Kishshana Palmer 30:00

Thank you for having me.

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